Voldemort's Real Identity?

[ElfTBD]

I just started re-reading GoF this week, and I noticed something in the first chapter (you know, where they talk about the Riddle House and all) that made me think a bit, and realized I haven't seen it brought up here (if it has, please point me to the right thread):

When the Riddle murders are described, it talks about 3 people getting killed (mother, father, child) and a teenage boy being seen around the place....

Reading it again brought the following questions to my mind:

1) Did Voldemort steal the Riddle identity?

or

2) Did Voldie have a sibling?

or 3) Were they muggle members of the Riddle family and he decided to get rid of them?

Ponderous man, really ponderous....;)

[Colli]

Well, in CoS it says that the Chamber was opened 50 years ago... and in GoF it says that the murder occurred 50 years ago, so I always assumed that the man living at the Riddle House was Tom Riddle's father (since he gave him his name when he was born) and that the two elderly people were Tom/Voldie's grandparents, Tom Riddle Senior's parents.

Because in CoS Tom Riddle talks about his parents (the Riddles) and it doesn't seem like he'd lie giving exposition. It's kind of like the whole Architect/Matrix debate. :D

[Rivenlas]

That was always my theory too, Colli. It seems we agree on almost everything!! :hug:

Sorry, Riv is hyper

[ElfTBD]

hmmm...ok, maybe I should read it again because I thought it was a young man (as in child)...

arrgghh...why do I have to wait till monday.....*sigh*

[ChianaWeasley]

Well, my "crack pot theory";) is that the entire line of the Riddle family were all botched in the brains.

[ElfTBD]

Originally posted by ChianaWeasley
Well, my "crack pot theory";) is that the entire line of the Riddle family were all botched in the brains.

:rotfl:

That could very well be...;)

[ChianaWeasley]

LOL
:o
I must been taken captive by the dread captian obvious!!
;)
:rolleyes:
:D

[ElfTBD]

Originally posted by ChianaWeasley
LOL
:o
I must been taken captive by the dread captian obvious!!
;)
:rolleyes:
:D

That's ok...

although, I'm still reading book 5, so maybe I'll find something new.....

[Colli]

So I have new thoughts and questions about the Dark Lord (as Severus would put it) raised by book 5.. and didn't want to start a new thread. :)

Here come the black boxes...
In the Sorting Hat's new song, it was said that "Slytherin took only pure-blood wizards". Naturally, that trend would have continued throughout the years. But what about Tom Riddle? I mean, yes he was the heir of Slytherin, but his father was a Muggle.

Which brings me to another question,
CoS and GoF showed us that Tom Riddle hated his mixed ancestry, but isn't it just a tad bit ironic that he, the Dark Lord, sets out to purify the world of all Muggles and Mudbloods when he himself is one? Harry most wittily pointed that out to the Death Eaters... do y'all have any comments?

[ChianaWeasley]

Exactly like Hitler.
They are basically the same
Vold- you-know-who sucks
Hitler sucked


Kimono comes from the greek word
Kimona,
which means winter,
you wear a robe in winter,
there you go

;)

[ElfTBD]

Originally posted by Colli
In the Sorting Hat's new song, it was said that "Slytherin took only pure-blood wizards". Naturally, that trend would have continued throughout the years. But what about Tom Riddle? I mean, yes he was the heir of Slytherin, but his father was a Muggle.


Has to make you wonder...and remember the family tree at Sirius' house? Maybe his father wasn't technically a muggle...maybe he was a squib from another pureblood family? I can't see any other way he could have gotten in to Slytherin otherwise, unless he knew how to force the Sorting hat to sort him in to Slytherin...


Which brings me to another question,
CoS and GoF showed us that Tom Riddle hated his mixed ancestry, but isn't it just a tad bit ironic that he, the Dark Lord, sets out to purify the world of all Muggles and Mudbloods when he himself is one? Harry most wittily pointed that out to the Death Eaters... do y'all have any comments?

I agree with ChianaWeasly...rather Hitler-like there....

[lithorose]

I'm not sure to what extent the Sorting Hat should be trusted. It seems to make some rather random choices. And how can it balance out the #s of students in each house to make roughly equal number if it's all that strict about what house it places students in? I think most people could fit in more than one house. Don't feel like listing out all the instances tho.

[Pilgrim Grey]

What, you reckon the HEIR OR SLYTHERIN isn't going to be put in Slytherin no matter what???

[Colli]

LOL, I did mention that in my post. :p :trout:

But the heir of Slytherin being a Mudblood? Yeah, now that you guys mention it, it does sound a lot like Hitler. Weird.

[Elwen]

Well, not so very weird, really. In fact, people who are outsiders (especially in their own definition of what society ought to be like) can become more zealous in their pursuit than people who grew up with something like a birthright....

So, in a way, I guess, Voldemort is a pretty likely creation in that respect.

But it is a very interesting observation!!!


Concerning the houses: the sorting is really something I don't get.

Why was Harry nearly put into Slytherin? If purity is the main issue (as the hat says in HP5) Harry wasn't ever going to be a chandidate. But in earlier songs the diefinition was different, wasn't it? Something about people who are most keen to achieve their ends, whatever the means?


And if a candidate fits into two houses who decides where they go? Did Hermione choose brave Gryffindor over intelligent Ravenclaw - given that she is probably the brightest pupil in the year she would be a Ravenclaw candidate. Why was she sent to Gryffindor? And she is also working so hard (a characterisytic of Hufflepuff in an earlier book)....

For some reason the Hufflepuffs strike me as a bit of a looser house... they were at least seen as hard working - now they are described as 'all those who don't fit into the other three'. Not flattering.


Oh well.....


FInally, the pure-blood Weasleys as well ans Neville should go into Slytherin (or should at least be considered).... but clearly brave was more important than pure in this case. And until very recently I would have seen no reason whatsoever to put Neville into Gryffindor!! Except,m perhaps, for the reason that he really wouold have suffered in Slytherin, with his family history.


This all seems a little weird.


Elwen

[ElfTBD]

Originally posted by Colli
LOL, I did mention that in my post. :p :trout:

But the heir of Slytherin being a Mudblood? Yeah, now that you guys mention it, it does sound a lot like Hitler. Weird.

Hmmm...after thinking about it...not that wierd...A LOT of current social issues about civil rights, free speech, etc were in the new book, and it just fits...

to me, it seems like JK likes to put in issues like this...(I think it's bloody brilliant acctually)

[Elwen]

ElfTbD - head over to the politics thread where this is being discussed (with spoilers, so beware).

I agree - those issues of liberty, information control, civil courage and so on are amazing. :) and very welcome, too, in a book like this.

Elwen

[Colli]

About the sorting, I think it's clear that most students would have qualities which would enable them to be in more than one house, but it's the quality which stands out the most, is strongest, or is most highly regarded by that student which determines the house.

And the Hat is right... our choices make up a lot of who we are. So whereas Hermione has qualities that would allow her to be in any of the three houses, she chose Gryffindor.

I trust the Sorting Hat, the 4 founders did put their brains in it after all.

About Slytherin, just because you're a pureblood doesn't mean you're automatically destined to go in. I'm sure Ron and Neville et al WERE considered, but lacked the qualities that Slytherin so greatly values.

What I don't get about Harry is how sometimes he's called pureblood and sometimes he's not. His mother and father were both non-Muggles, so he SHOULD be considered Pure Blood, but Voldemort seems to think that Harry is half-blood, like him.

[Elwen]

Colli, as far as we knoiw Lily ?Evans (I think that was her name?) was 100% muggle born! Just *look* at Petunia! As far as I understand her parents were sympathetic (just like Hermione's muggle parents) but Harry is definitely not pure blood as far as I can tell!

We don't nknow about the Potter side of things - if they are pure blood why are they not related to the Blacks since all the pure blood families (including the Weasleys) seem to be related?

But it seems pretty clear that they had a wizarding household.


So, like Tom Riddle Harry Potter is not of pure wizard ancestry. The difference is that his mother was a muggle-born witch while Tom Riddle senior was a muggle who rejected his wife when he found out she was a witch!


I am not sure whether Harry's ancestry would be good enough for Slytherin, though? According to the sorting hat it was, I guess.... but his muggle born mother is a point of contempt for real purists it seems (and just see what they say to Hermione!).


Elwen

[Colli]

So I guess it all comes down to the definitions of pureblood and mudblood.... Harry had two magic parents, and as far as I'm concerned that makes him pureblood, even if one of those parents was Muggle-born. :)

As far as the Blacks go, it almost seems to me that they're family is comprised of mostly "evil" wizarding families, not all wizarding families. Because, as we've been talking about how close the wizarding world is, it would be kind of hard for him to be related to ALL pureblood families. Or else we could question the background of Fudge, Crabbe, Goyle, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Severus, etc. It would go on forever. :)

[Elwen]

Well, I guess some people are more picky about family background than others.

Dumbledore accepts everyone as long as they have the talent (although people with little talent but good ancestry seem to be OK to him as well).

Some people don't like wizards/wiches with muggle parents

Some people think only people from long standing pure wizarding families are OK:
These are a bit like a self-declared arsitocracy - just look at the way in which the Malfoys or the Blacks behave! But then, the Weasleys don't....


I guess it is a bit like in the real world. Perhaps.

We have different standards as well - for example, I am a foreigner and I have never had problems with xenophobia - while many foreigners have. There are even people who are several generations British who have problems with xenophobia....
it isn't logical and different people react differently. I guess it is similar with muggles, half-muggles, squibs, wizards with muggles in their families and pure wizard families.

Elwen

[ChianaWeasley]

I find it interesting that all of the pure breed wizard families are all tied together. Which in order to keep the pure blood going incest will soon occur. Six fingered children....shudders

Also with the whole hat discussion, the hat doesnt really make the decisions. Like Harry and Hermione they were both nearly placed in another house, but they wanted to be placed in Gryffindor. You've already made the decision of where you wanted go, the hat simply makes it happen. It can be compared to the Matrix Reloaded, you've already made the decision, you wanted to find out what it will lead to. Not why you made it.

I think the hat was created by the founders of Hogwarts for a purpose, but not a strong a purpose as actually choosing where the students go.

make sense?
:D

[lithorose]

Part of the discrimination could be that Harry was raised as a Muggle, while Tom was presumeably raised as a wizard after his father left. And people of mixed parentage often identify much stronger with one half of their heritage than another, so it's not surprising he would side with the wizard half. And once he started spouting things a lot of purebloods wanted to hear, I don't think they wanted to think about who it was who was saying them. And Harry being the cause of their leader's fall, they would naturally want to hate him by any means they could, ie his ancestry.

[Monkfish]

Lilly has green eyes because she is Voldemort`s daughter..........:p

[ChianaWeasley]

Im a bit weary on Lily being Voldemort's daughter...

[Monkfish]

Not as weary as Voldemort`s daughter!:p

[Moxie]

Originally posted by lithorose
Part of the discrimination could be that Harry was raised as a Muggle, while Tom was presumeably raised as a wizard after his father left.

Actually, his mother died in or just after childbirth, and Tom was raised in a Muggle orphanage which apparently treated him at least as badly as the Dursleys do Harry (see the memories Tom's diary shows Harry in CoS for details.)

[Elwen]

... But what is all that about Tom's muggle father throwing out his mother because he found out that she was a witch? I seem to remember reading that? :confused:


Elwen

[Colli]

You both are right. ;) In GoF (chapter 33):

"You see that house upon the hillside, Potter? My father lived there. My mother, a witch who lived here in this village, fell in love with him. But he abandoned her when she told him what she was. . . . He didn't like magic, my father. . .

"He left her and returned to his Muggle parents before I was even born, Potter, and she died giving birth to me, leaving me to be raised in a Muggle orphanage . . . but I vowed to find him . . . "

[lithorose]

D'oh! I should've remembered that.:o Well, there goes that theory. Being raised in an awful orphanage wouldn't instill love of muggles. It's really amazing Harry didn't hate more people growing up at the Dursley's.

[ChianaWeasley]

Tom Riddle was just naturally evil. Maybe him... and...and evil Umbridge should...should....get married!
:mad:

dumb Umbridge...
mumbles under breath
:p

[Monkfish]

Hemm Hemm...

[Elwen]

Chiana, I am not sure that the concept of 'naturally evil' has a place in JKR's world.

It isn't a very sophisticated way of looking at things - I think that Tom Riddle's story explains it much better.


But I have to agree with lithorose. It is rather surprising that Harry (who clearly has extraordinary wizarding talent just like Tom Riddle) isn't a worse person than he is. His anger is very justified but he does not to seem to act on it. In a way I imagine young Tom Riddle in a similar way, but acting on his anger.

We haven't seen enough of his life story, of course. But I have the feeling that Harry's friends made a big difference to the way he developed :)#


After all, Tom Riddle would not have known about his magic powers before he got called to Hogwarts (probably just as unexpectedly as Harry) - so the most significant development of their attitude to the wizarding world in each case would have developed only after they came to Hogwarts.


One wonders how Tom spent his holidays, for example.... perhaps he wasn't forced to go back (seeing that he didn't need special protection).


I wonder - is Harry so different because for him the wizarding world (even if he might feel that it abandoned him to the muggles) is this refuge that is worth protecting just for that?

I think these parallels and differences are crucial.


Elwen

[lizz]

Tom had to go to a muggle orphanage during holidays. I´m sure he hated it.

In CoS there is the scene with the headmaster who says he has to go back to the orphanage as usual and then Tom leads them to believe Hagrid has opened the Chamber of Secrets. (Not that he wouldnt have done something like this anyway.)

But I´m really curious about the relationship between dumbledore and Voldemort. Why is Voldemort that afraid of Dumbledore?

[Monkfish]

Sanpe`s father!!!!!!!!!!!11:D

[Marchwarden]

Mind you, in CoS Dumbledore refers to riddle as the last living descendent of Salazar Slytherin. This weighs against the various Heir(s) of Voldemort theories.

Longbottom in Gryffindor? I always saw this as a sign that there was more to the lad than was at first apparent. I'm learning to love Neville, but I'm fearful that JKR is simply winding him up to go out in a blaze of glory. As powerful a bit of fiction as it would be, "Neville Longbottom's Last Stand" would come as a bit of a blow, especially after [ahem] in OotP.

[xKatiexBellx]

Originally posted by ChianaWeasley
dumb Umbridge...
mumbles under breath
:p
lol... I hate Umbridge but in her parts I always can't help but giggle...(I've been reading for hours here... its four o'clock A.M. here and I've been reading since about 9... I just put the book down, mind im a slow reader) anyway... but yea, my moms sleepin and i was very close to waking her up by actually laughing in one of her parts... though i spend about 10 minutes having giggling fits over the parts with Cho to!:D I used to hate the idea of a Harry/Cho ship... but now I find it very cute with what goes on in the book:p

I've heard it's supposed to get daker... but in my opinion its much cuter and funnier than the others which makes me like it a lot so far

Sry to interupt and go a bit off topic:o

[swiftsnowmane]

Back to the orginal question of the thread, I'm not sure if this was already clarified, but I always just figured that the Riddles who lived in the Riddle house who Tom killed were Tom/Voldie's father and his father's SECOND wife and son. I assume everyone else realizes by now, but just making sure.:o I personally think its very Hitler-like of Voldemort to kill his father whom he loathed so much.

[lizz]

I always thought it was his father and his grandparents

[swiftsnowmane]

Er....that WOULD make sense too. :o

*sigh* Why oh why do I never understand?:p

[Kristin]

Tom Riddle says about the name Lord Voldemort: "It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course."

I wonder, who were his friends? This is the only reference I can think of to Voldemort having real friends -- and "intimate" friends at that.

Does he have friends now? Personally, I doubt it. In the grand tradition of bad guys, he leads through fear not loyalty.

[Marchwarden]

Originally posted by Kristin
Tom Riddle says about the name Lord Voldemort: "It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course."

I wonder, who were his friends? This is the only reference I can think of to Voldemort having real friends -- and "intimate" friends at that.

Does he have friends now? Personally, I doubt it. In the grand tradition of bad guys, he leads through fear not loyalty.

I guess the closest thing would be Bellatrix. She fears him too, but it's mingled with a sort of religious adoration. Scariest part is, it doesn't seem to be a product of Azkabzn-induced madness; she was like that before she went in.

[Kristin]

I just had a new and interesting thought about Voldemort:

In OotP, we find out that Voldemort is kind of "possessing" Harry and that Harry is seeing through Voldemort. Yet when Harry sees the attack on Mr. Weasley, it is through the eyes of a snake. Could this mean Voldemort is an animagus who can turn into a snake?

[Elwen]

Interesting point, Kristin. I at least never even thought of it twice. I always connected that snake with Nagini - the big snake at the beginning of GoF. Now the question is whether V possesses her mind or actually turns into a snake... hmmmmmmmmmm.....



Concerning V's friends.... Wouldn't Bellatrix be the wrong generation? Sirius was at school about 20 years ago and she was his cousin. I would guess that Lucius Malfoy (married to another of Sirius' cousins) is the same generation as well....

Voldemort was at school 50 years ago - so he is another generation up. His friends may have been the parents of the present death Eaters.... What is odd is that we don't get to see that generation at all!

What happened to Harry's grandparents? Sirius was only about 35 or so - why are his parents dead? What of the old Malfoys and so on?

This strikes me as odd.


We haven't worked out, of course, how old Fudge is. He might have been at school with Tom Riddle - which would make him about 65 (a good age for a politician at the top of his power) ... Barty Crouch Sr. is about that generation as well. And then we have some of the people in the order, perhaps? Moody? Mundungus? But most of them seem younger, too!
And then we have also Mc Gonagall, and perhaps some of the other teachers....

So where is that generation?
Who went to school with Voldemort?


Dumbledore, of course, was a young teacher when Tom was at school - he could be about 10 years older than V which would make him about 75.


hmmmmm.... we haven't heard all of this yet, surely?


Elwen

[Marchwarden]

Originally posted by Elwen
Interesting point, Kristin. I at least never even thought of it twice. I always connected that snake with Nagini - the big snake at the beginning of GoF. Now the question is whether V possesses her mind or actually turns into a snake... hmmmmmmmmmm.....

Concerning V's friends.... Wouldn't Bellatrix be the wrong generation? Sirius was at school about 20 years ago and she was his cousin. I would guess that Lucius Malfoy (married to another of Sirius' cousins) is the same generation as well....



1) I don't have the book on me so I cannot specify page#, but I'm quite sure that one of the characters explains to Harry that Voldemort was possessing the snake.

2) I was unclear:o . I didn't mean to suggest that Bellatrix was one of Riddle's old schoolmates. I simply meant to say that in addition to fear and the hope of being granted greater power (the standard Death Eater motivations), she seems to harbor some kind of twisted love for him (not romantic love; kind of a worshipful adoration). The other Death Eaters may fall to their knees and kiss his robes, but she seems to actually mean it.

[ElfTBD]

Originally posted by Kristin
I just had a new and interesting thought about Voldemort:

In OotP, we find out that Voldemort is kind of "possessing" Harry and that Harry is seeing through Voldemort. Yet when Harry sees the attack on Mr. Weasley, it is through the eyes of a snake. Could this mean Voldemort is an animagus who can turn into a snake?

I thought that meant Nagini too, but who knows...there seems to be a lot about Voldie that makes one go "hmmmmm...."


Originally posted by swiftsnowmane
Back to the orginal question of the thread, I'm not sure if this was already clarified, but I always just figured that the Riddles who lived in the Riddle house who Tom killed were Tom/Voldie's father and his father's SECOND wife and son. I assume everyone else realizes by now, but just making sure. I personally think its very Hitler-like of Voldemort to kill his father whom he loathed so much.


hmmm...I was going to double check the chapter, but I forgot I had let one of my co-workers borrow GoF...but if I remember right, it's not quite specific...in some ways, I wish we got more background in to Voldie in book 5, but no dice...

although, I do want to peruse Chamber of Secrets again.......(oh, like that's a chore...;) )

[Elwen]

Originally posted by Marchwarden
1) I don't have the book on me so I cannot specify page#, but I'm quite sure that one of the characters explains to Harry that Voldemort was possessing the snake.

2) I was unclear:o . I didn't mean to suggest that Bellatrix was one of Riddle's old schoolmates. I simply meant to say that in addition to fear and the hope of being granted greater power (the standard Death Eater motivations), she seems to harbor some kind of twisted love for him (not romantic love; kind of a worshipful adoration). The other Death Eaters may fall to their knees and kiss his robes, but she seems to actually mean it.


1 -Thanks for that, Marchwarden... I knew I had a reason for thinking this... probably it was somewhewre in the book!

2 - I understand. I still think the misunderstanding has thrown up a thin g or two.

I still want to know where that 'grandparents' generation is in the HP books so far... We still don't know very much about V's early history! He was at schools 50 years ago - but V's greatest power was reached 14 years ago. What happened in between? Did he build it slowly? If yes, was there a sense of threat at Hogwarts when Harry's parents were there, just as there is that sense now that H is there?

When did V actually start to gather supporters? If that was earlier than 50 years ago why are all his supporters that we see of a generation that was about 20 when he reached the peak of his power? That doesn't quite sound right....


Elwen

[Kristin]

OK, I reread the part and it is made clear that Voldemort was possessing the snake (as opposed to being the snake).

I still wonder, though... The power to possess others (the snake, Harry) seems to be an unusual talent. Even when Harry is seeing in Voldemort's mind or Snape is seeing in Harry's mind, etc. ... that seems quite different from actually possessing someone. Why is Voldemort able to do this? We haven't seen anyone else do it, but would they be able to?

[Seriphus]

Dumbledore, of course, was a young teacher when Tom was at school - he could be about 10 years older than V which would make him about 75. Dumbledore is 150 in PS/SS- wizards live longer than muggles (all the more mysterious in terms of missing grandparents). McGonagall is 75 at the start of the series.

Interestingly Tom Riddle was at school in 1942, which we know because its 50 years before CoS. Three years later in 1945 Dumbledore defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald. In 1945 Tom Riddle was just leaving/had just left school. Maybe he was influenced by Grindelwald. He would certainly have witnessed his effect on the wizarding world. Perhaps Grindelwald also caused the deaths of a few of the earlier generations. That still doesn't explain the lack of older DEs, though.